President Russell M. Nelson donated the medical journals from his pioneering career as a heart surgeon to the University of Utah on Aug. 30, 2023. “I am deeply grateful for the important role the University of Utah played in my education and surgical career,” President Nelson said.
Having “perhaps our most distinguished alumnus donate such a remarkable volume of records” marked a historic day for the university, said U of U President Taylor R. Randall. He joins this episode of the Church News podcast to discuss President Nelson’s gift, the value of higher education and the benefit of the Church’s institute program to college-aged students.
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Transcript:
Taylor R. Randall: This role, despite its challenges, has given me an extraordinary hope for the future of humankind. When I see both the inventions that are occurring on my campus, but also the energy and the vibrancy of the next generation, I sleep easy at night. Our future is so bright, and I think much of that is brought to our campus by members of our Church, and it gets accelerated with their interaction with people of other faiths. And we’re building a society that is durable, that is sustainable, that is running at the large questions of society and culture rather than away from them, and they’re going to come up with solutions, and we should all feel good.
01:00
Sarah Jane Weaver: This is Sarah Jane Weaver, executive editor of the Church News, welcoming you to the Church News podcast. We are taking you on a journey of connection as we discuss news and events of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
President Russell M. Nelson donated the medical journals from his pioneering career as a heart surgeon to the University of Utah on Wednesday, Aug. 30, 2023. “I am deeply grateful for the important role the University of Utah played in my education and surgical career,” he said. University of Utah President Taylor Randall said the day was historic, as perhaps the most distinguished alumni of the University of Utah donated such a remarkable gift of records. Now, President Randall joins the Church News podcast — taped in a conference room outside his office at the University of Utah — to talk about President Nelson’s gift, the value of higher education and the benefit of the Church’s Institute program to college-age students.
Well, President Randall, it’s so nice of you to make some time for us today. As we start, I hope you can just tell us what prepared you to assume the responsibilities of being president of the University of Utah.
02:16
Taylor R. Randall: Sarah, first off, thanks for coming up to the University of Utah and letting me be on this podcast. It’s just a delight to be here in front of all of your audience. And I’m a big fan of everything that you do at the Church News, and also the Desert News, and congratulations on your new position.
Sarah Jane Weaver: Thank you so much.
02:35
Taylor R. Randall: You know, I’ve been at this university president job for — coming on three years in August. And I’m not sure there’s anything that actually prepares you for a job like this, particularly at this moment in time. It’s just a fascinating job to have. But I will say there’s a lot in my family background that kind of led me to want to be the president of the University of Utah. People may or may not know, but I’m a third-generation faculty member here. So depending on your point of view, this is the family business, or it’s a family stuck in a deep rut, but we love this rut. And I think close to 100 years of faculty service has been performed by the Randall family, all coming out of the School of Business. And what that’s given us is, I guess, a love and a passion for the University of Utah. Sometimes that’s irrational, to be quite honest. But it also gives us a historical context and a sense of the culture and the beauty that comes out of the University of Utah.
In a very practical sense, I spent 12 years as dean of the business school, which gave me a really good feel for the administration of the university, its vision, its capabilities, and I thoroughly enjoyed that time. I will say I had some incredible mentors when I was the dean of the business school. One of them happened to be Dr. Gary Cornia, who was the dean of the Marriott School at Brigham Young University. He is, today even, still a dear, dear friend. I leaned on him for advice many, many times. And that was actually just wonderful. It’s always good to be able to point to mentors in your life who get you prepared for big challenges.
04:19
Sarah Jane Weaver: Well, I also grew up in a family that loved the University of Utah.
Taylor R. Randall: You did?
Sarah Jane Weaver: Before I went to that school down south.
Taylor R. Randall: Wow, that’s OK. It’s all right. It’s a great school, by the way.
Sarah Jane Weaver: We only owned red at our house. This is a time when we talk about schools and rivalries and everything else. This is actually a time when great challenges face higher education. Can you talk about some of the challenges that all major universities are facing?
04:47
Taylor R. Randall: Yeah. You know, it’s been interesting to watch just public opinion polls. We have seen, of any American institution, a greater loss of confidence in higher education than any other, whether it be the military or police or Supreme Court. And there are a variety of things that are making that happen. And I call them the great disruptors of higher education.
One of them is people are consuming information and getting knowledge in different ways. All of us are holding telephones, and how many times a day do we sit down and say, “Oh my gosh, here’s the information I need.” And we used to go to talk to professors and find that at universities. The second is the challenging costs of education. You’ve seen list tuition prices increase much faster than inflation. I think it’s reaching a point where it’s out of touch with many, many Americans, and so they question the return on investment. I think political polarization has also, as we’ve seen this last year, affected campuses. And then I think the fourth that often isn’t talked about is, I would say, the general state and the mental health of our youth that are coming up and questioning whether they’re going to get the development, the right development opportunities at universities.
And these are really the things that I think drive the passion for what I do, to try to solve those problems and make universities relevant again. And so I always talk about us needing to pivot somewhat. And by pivot, I mean we’ve typically, in most universities, we’re a research university, so we teach, and we do research. And I think we’ve got to do something broader than that. And I always say instead of teaching, we now have to inspire people, right? We have to take individuals that are nervous about their future, we have to imbue hope in them, we have to show them a path into careers and life that will make them happy.
By the way, the data still show that people that receive university educations are happier and more successful in life. We have to, instead of just talk about our research, we have to show that we’re actually helping society innovate and get better. And so we call it “use-inspired research” or “user-driven research,” meaning make sure what you’re trying to solve is actually relevant to people today and will lead to making life better. And then a page out of I think many of our religious institutions, if you look at the missions, they talk about service. And I think a public institution has got to think about a service mission in a much broader and deeper way. If we start doing those things, and I think the perception as well as the actual return on a university education, particularly a University of Utah education, we’ll get much, much better.
07:42
Sarah Jane Weaver: Well, and I’m glad you mentioned both the skepticism people have for higher education and alluded to the returns. If you were talking to a young college-aged person right now, what would you tell them? Why would you encourage them to pursue an advanced diploma?
08:01
Taylor R. Randall: Yeah, that’s a great question. Can I run through some numbers and then maybe just get to something a little more inspiring? So, first off, the numbers are still quite stark. You graduate with an undergraduate degree, you’ll make 20,000 more dollars a year, and the lifetime earnings just accumulate from that. The myth about degrees to nowhere actually isn’t true. Over 80% of our graduates are going into fields that are high-demand jobs. And so we see placement that’s extraordinary high. In fact, the University of Utah, among the system of higher education here in the state, has the highest median placement in terms of just placement and salary.
The tuition itself, I wish people would start digging into a little bit more. What the list price is and what people actually pay after financial aid and scholarships are given out are quite different. So for example, this is order of magnitude, correct, leaving off some cents and dollars here, our list price is around $10,000, with the average person — particularly an in-state person; these are in-state numbers — is only paying $5,000. So you think about that: For $20,000, you’re going to graduate with a degree that’s going to do spectacularly for you.
And then we get to the things that are probably a little softer but I think just as important. You look at measures of happiness among people with degrees, much happier. You look at many success measures in life, they’re more apt to be in the social discourse, run for office, vote, all of the things that we actually want in a society that is productive. And so all those base numbers are still there. And then, the sell that I think is most important is that we can create and our universities still care deeply about the development of individuals. We care about your success, we care about where you end up in life, and I don’t think there’s a better place to spend some time than in a university.
09:58
Sarah Jane Weaver: And I’m glad you mentioned the cost of education, because I know so many young people are worried about debt, about student loans, about getting a job after they graduate that will not only allow them to purchase a home in Utah, where housing prices have recently gone up, but to pay off that debt.
Can you talk about this issue and then give advice for young people who are worried about debt, worried about the cost of education and really looking for a path forward?
10:30
Taylor R. Randall: Yeah, let me just start by saying — particularly those that are in the state of Utah or those that are, for example, going into the Church Educational System, I’ll pitch to them as well — these are two systems that are extremely good at getting people out without debt. In fact, the state of Utah overall, and I’ll speak for the system of higher education, has the lowest debt burden for any graduate in the entire nation. That number — I’m going to look at my notes here to make sure I get it right — I believe is just a little bit higher than $18,000 of debt. And to be honest, it’s under 50% of the people that are actually even taking out debt. The last number I said was right around 40% of people actually take out debt. So 60%, nearly 60, maybe it’s a little bit less than that, aren’t even taking out debt, if you come out of the system of higher education in Utah.
Putting that in perspective, many other states, it’s really around 60% that are taking out debt. And the highest debt in the country is in New Hampshire at nearly $40,000. So, that is just dramatically different than I think any other place. And so people that are coming to school in Utah, whether it be in the Church system or in the system of higher education, are able to graduate relatively debt free. And we spend a lot of time working on that.
Now, what’s really interesting, if you inflation adjust our tuition numbers — and granted, we’ve had a period of higher inflation — we are actually less today inflation adjusted, our tuition, than we were five, six years ago. And if you actually look at the net price, because we’ve been raising scholarship money and there’s more financial aid, it’s dramatically cheaper today than it was six or seven years ago. That’s not a consistent story across the country, but it’s one we like to talk about. So, come to the state of Utah for education.
12:25
Sarah Jane Weaver: I have three college-aged daughters. They’re all getting an education right now at a different institution in the schools in Utah.
Taylor R. Randall: Is that right? So you’ve got the experience. I probably ought to be asking you questions.
12:34
Sarah Jane Weaver: I don’t have anyone at the University of Utah. I have two at BYU, one at Utah State. But I do want to talk about something that I think about a lot because of them, and that’s polarization. We have this society where politics are polarized, where so many other opinions are becoming more and more polarized, and that has to spill onto college campuses. And it seems like college should be a place and an opportunity where people can share their voice, find their voice, learn how they feel about issues.
First of all, how do you feel about free speech on college campuses? And is there something that shouldn’t be allowed? Is there speech that shouldn’t be allowed on a university campus?
13:19
Taylor R. Randall: You know, haven’t we had a crash course on free speech in society, and cross that with the notion of academic freedom, and you have dissertations upon dissertations that will be written. I think I’m sensing from you that you and I think the same way. Universities should be marketplaces of ideas. And the law specifies what can and cannot be said. I have always said that if you have degraded your speech to where you’re talking about the law, we’re actually in trouble. What we have to do at universities is create platforms for our fantastic discourse, where there’s mutual respect, where any topic can be brought up, there’s no stupid question, and we actually assume the best in the people that we’re talking to, that they’re here for learning, understanding and trying to get to know the views of others.
We’ve tried recently to create a platform to try to encourage this on campus. We have a program called our Societal Impact Scholars, and we try to bring intellectuals from other parts of the country onto campus to try to lead us in dialogues. And for the last three years, this has been the theme. Our first individual that we brought on was Arthur Brooks. And Arthur has been fantastic. We brought him in after COVID, and his theme was human thriving and happiness. We felt like that was the message that people needed to hear. And interestingly, part of being happy is actually learning to appreciate others. He’s got four basic things he talks about to have to be happy, and part of that is community and building a thriving community.
The next person we brought in was Tim Shriver, and Tim is doing a lot of work on dignity and how we have dignity in our speech. He’s got this scale; he’ll rate you from, I think, one to seven, one to eight. And whenever I say something, he’ll go, “Hey, Taylor, you were a three. Yeah, we’ve got to get you better here.” But one of the things we’ve learned from Tim and that we’ve had him working with students is just the exercise of trying to understand what’s dignified speech has allowed people from wide viewpoints to actually learn to speak together on very controversial topics. And it’s been fun to see the confidence that our students are gaining in terms of approaching very, very difficult conversations.
And then our final person that we just recently brought in is a gentleman by the name of Eboo Patel, and Eboo is the president of Interfaith America. And one of the reasons we brought him in is because where we’re located in Utah. This perhaps harkens back to my family. We are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and one of the things we’ve loved the most about the University of Utah is the diversity of opinions, but particularly religious opinions. And we felt now that it’s an interesting time to have someone like Eboo Patel, who is Muslim, come on and say how do you elevate that kind of dialogue on campus, and he’s been here a number of times and helped us and student groups get organized in terms of how you have productive dialogue around faith.
16:37
Sarah Jane Weaver: And we have covered either through the Church News or Deseret News I think every single one of those addresses. We’ll link to them from the podcast so the audience can hear more about what they said.
I want to talk more to you about this idea of community and the idea that so many of your students are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You’ve shown great support for the institute that’s located adjacent to the campus.
What’s the advantage of having something like an institute that can support students in whatever community they may belong, if they choose to take advantage of it?
17:12
Taylor R. Randall: Yeah, we have such deep appreciation for the institute program. I attended institute when I was here on campus. My children did as well. One of the fun things is they met lifelong friends there. Our institute is just spectacular in a couple senses. First of all, it’s just got this spirit of service. And that spirit of service is something that just blesses the rest of campus, because the way they do it is they try to include everyone.
And then I think the second dimension is they want to interact with the other faiths that are on campus. And it’s been spectacular for me, as I go down to the Newman Center or interact with our several Jewish groups on campus or the Muslim groups and other Christian denominations, just to see the goodwill that exists between many of our religious organizations and secular institutions.
Public universities sometimes ignore religion as a, I guess, a factor in life. But I think we miss the richness of what people are and what humanity is if we actually can’t talk about it and say, “Look, there are massive consumer behavior, massive historical facts, many decisions are made around these things. So let’s understand that as well, while you’re on the campus.” And to me, that’s why I came to the University of Utah, because I loved that mash of ideas, whether it be secular or religious. And our institute is a positive force in that dialogue.
18:45
Sarah Jane Weaver: Well, and it’s a beautiful thing that, if I hear you right, you’re saying all of your students can bring their whole self to the public square, to their education, to the dialogues they have.
Taylor R. Randall: You know what? I can see why you’re the communicator here, because that’s exactly what I wanted to say. Thank you.
19:01
Sarah Jane Weaver: Well, talk to me about how being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has blessed your life.
Taylor R. Randall: Oh, gosh, so many different ways. And so, first of all, let me say thank you for giving me that question in advance; it gave me some opportunity to reflect. And I think the best way I can say it is: It is really the motivation, particularly the principles of the gospel, are my motivation for life. It allows me on a daily basis to take the long view of people, to be optimistic about the challenges we face in society. It gives me a predisposition for love and accepting people. It informs my leadership in almost everything I do. And I will say I have found as president of this university, I’ve relied on it more than I ever have in my life, just to be able to have those moments of peace and quiet and sense direction and try to feel what we should do to bring success to the state of Utah, to the students at this university. It’s been fantastic.
20:08
Sarah Jane Weaver: And I think in recent years, we’ve dealt with the pandemic, I think mental health is a challenge, and we mentioned polarization. But there’s so much in society right now that feels harder, at least for me personally, than it did a few years ago.
When you face challenges, where do you turn? Where do you go to? Is there a place that you go to that says, “OK, this is how I can get past this”?
20:33
Taylor R. Randall: Yeah. It’s been interesting; it’s changed over time. And I will certainly say, in my role as president, it’s much different than what it was before. So, when I was younger, starting out, I’d look at leadership books and, “Oh my gosh, what’s the right technique?” Then, I don’t know whether I got tired of leadership books or I realized there wasn’t enough grit in them, so I started reading history. And I still read a lot of history. I think you read a biography, and you realize life was hard and challenges were hard.
Increasingly now, I spend a lot of time reading inspiration. And it’d be wrong of me not to say that I enjoy general conference a lot, and I view general conference, and what our Church leaders give through a lens of “How would I use that at a university and in my leadership?” And so I spent a lot more time in kind of what I believe and how I would take my beliefs and apply them to getting through problems. And I don’t know if that’s just me or the moment or maybe an evolution of how I’ve been, but it’s been really helpful for me.
21:46
Sarah Jane Weaver: Well, and actually, the first time I met you in person was in the office of President Russell M. Nelson, who was donating his medical journals to the University of Utah. That felt like a significant event. It was tender to be there and realize how very alert and keen his memory is, how important those journals were to him as such a significant part of his very, very remarkable pioneering career as a heart surgeon.
Can you talk about that donation and about that moment?
22:20
Taylor R. Randall: I want to know if you remember it the same way I did. There was — the conversations in that meeting were just stunning to me. The first thing that I remember from that meeting was, there was a moment where he was talking to one of our surgeons, and I thought to myself, “How long has he been away from the field? And he could operate on me right now, and there would not be a problem at all. There’s no question in my mind it would be successful.” And as that went on, I began to realize — because I hadn’t known him as the doctor and the healer and the innovator — what a stunning career he had.
One of the funniest moments there, and correct me if I’m wrong; feel free, was when we asked — he’s inventor, innovator around the machine that keeps your heart moving during open-heart surgery — and I remember the doctor saying, “Well, how long did you keep them open that first time? Was it five minutes, six minutes, seven minutes?” I’m going to get the number wrong, but literally he looked at her, and he goes, “Oh, no, we were scared to death. We did it in like 35 seconds.” Do you remember that?
Sarah Jane Weaver: I do remember that.
Taylor R. Randall: I thought to myself that was just hilarious. And you realize what an innovator he was and how willing he was to try new things to make the human condition better. And I think you’ve seen that in the leadership of the Church during that time period. So, for us to have that history, that now a student is trying to figure out, “Where am I going to go?” and to blend, again, to blend someone who is so incredibly innovative and competent and forward thinking in a career with someone who also is able to blend a remarkable spiritual career as well, I think is going to be amazing for future generations here at the University of Utah.
24:13
Sarah Jane Weaver: Well, I loved that moment because there was a moment when President Nelson sort of leaned forward, you knew that there was going to be, that he had great interest in what your team was telling him. But then there was a moment where the team sort of leaned forward and realized, “Wow, we can learn something here too,” that remarkable conversation of which I understood nothing.
Taylor R. Randall: Me neither, it turns out, but there was some ventricles, and there was some blood moving back and forth, and hearts were beating. That was the good thing.
24:46
Sarah Jane Weaver: But it did. Your takeaway was exactly mine. He spent so much time, and he still understands it, and he was still interested, and he wanted to learn from them, and they wanted to learn from him. And now those journals are accessible to students, who can learn as well.
25:03
Taylor R. Randall: Yeah. We count them as a treasure. He has always been such a remarkable supporter of our university and School of Medicine in particular. We recently broke ground on a brand new building. And what was amazing is as I was talking to him, he came to that groundbreaking, I said, “Well, it’s kind of sad that we’re getting rid of this older building. I’m sure you had good memories here.” He said, “Oh, Taylor, I went to school before that building was even around.” And so you realize someone like President Nelson holds, certainly in his mind, so much of the progress that has occurred both in medicine and, of course, spiritually for our Church.
25:44
Sarah Jane Weaver: Yeah. And you think, in September he’ll be 100 years old. And he graduated from medical school, top in his class, what, at age 23? And so he has spent almost 80 years since that time that he’s started his medical career. And we’ve been the beneficiary of it. The leadership of the Church who work with him talk a lot about his decisiveness as a leader of the Church. And you have to think that has to come from having a heart open on the table and having to say not make a decision in minutes, but in, what, 35 seconds.
Taylor R. Randall: Sarah, can you even imagine having to make those decisions that fast? I fortunately do not have to. But yeah, I think you’re spot on.
26:31
Sarah Jane Weaver: Well, I’m glad we can look forward to celebrating his birthday. Another thing that we can all look forward to at this time are an opportunity where Utah will most likely be awarded the 2034 Olympic Games. As we tape this podcast, you’re preparing to go to Paris to be there for that announcement.
What does that mean for you personally, and even for a campus that could be the heart of some of those celebrations?
26:59
Taylor R. Randall: You know, isn’t this an exciting time for the state of Utah and the people of Utah? I am thrilled, like you, keeping my fingers crossed that this will be a positive announcement. The university will actually serve as the host of the Olympic Village, and also the opening and closing ceremonies. So I’ll get a chance to see the village as it’s organized in Paris. What it did for the University of Utah is it, like the state of Utah, is it just put us on the national map. If you look post-2002 Olympics, many, many individuals from out of state started applying to the University of Utah, and it gave us a national and international footprint that we hadn’t seen before. And for us, I think that’s just fun. It gives us a venue to brag a little bit and to talk about the great things that happen both here in the state and also at our university.
For our students, it is an amazing educational experience. We’ve already talked with the Olympic Committee, our students will be able to be interns with them, they’ll be involved in the planning, they’ll be able to see live one of the great world events, here on our campus. So I’m thrilled and excited.
28:08
Sarah Jane Weaver: Great. Well, and that’s a great place to bring this conversation to a close. We have a tradition at the Church News podcast, where we like to give people the last word, like to give them an opportunity to share their feelings about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And we always like to ask them the same question, and that’s: What do you know now? So, President Randall, what do you know now that you didn’t know before becoming president of the University of Utah?
28:36
Taylor R. Randall: You know, this role, despite its challenges, has given me an extraordinary hope for the future of humankind. When I see both the inventions that are occurring on my campus, but also the energy and the vibrancy of the next generation, I sleep easy at night. Our future is so bright, and I think much of that is brought to our campus by members of our Church, and it gets accelerated with their interaction with people of other faiths. And we’re building a society that is durable, that is sustainable, that is running at the large questions of society and culture rather than away from them, and they’re going to come up with solutions, and we should all feel good.
29:31
Sarah Jane Weaver: You have been listening to the Church News podcast. I’m your host, Church News executive editor Sarah Jane Weaver. I hope you have learned something today about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by peering with me through the Church News window. Please remember to subscribe, rate and review this podcast so it can be accessible to more people. And if you enjoyed the messages we shared today, please make sure you share the podcast with others. Thanks to our guests; my producer, KellieAnn Halvorsen; and others who make this podcast possible. Join us every week for a new episode. Find us on your favorite podcasting channels or with other news and updates on the Church on TheChurchNews.com.
