During his nine-year tenure as president of Brigham Young University and roughly two decades serving the Church’s flagship university before that role, Kevin J Worthen has learned a lot from the school’s mission statement to “assist individuals in their quest for perfection and eternal life.”
Worthen and his wife, Peggy Worthen, join Church News editor Ryan Jensen in this episode of the Church News podcast to discuss their learnings about family, humility and trusting the revelations of scriptural and modern prophets. They share their unique perspective of BYU and the power of embracing the opportunities of service, one step at a time.
Listen to this episode of the Church News podcast on Apple Podcasts, Amazon, Spotify, bookshelf PLUS, YouTube or wherever you get podcasts.
Transcript:
Kevin J Worthen: What I know now better than I did before is God is good. He is as good as He says He is. He is as loving as He says He is, and we can’t comprehend how good He is and how much He loves us. I think the more I turn to Him and the more I see people who turn to Him, the more convinced I am that we only see faintly how much He cares for us, how anxious He is to bless us. He loves us in ways we can’t fathom, in ways that are embodied by His Son, Jesus Christ, whom I love with all my heart. He gave Him as a sacrifice to us, and He is as good, He can take all things, all things, and turn them to our good. I’m convinced of that. I’ve seen it in which I get in a situation and I think, “There is no way I can get out of this,” and there’s always a way out with Him. And it’s led me to trust Him more and to get less excited and less concerned when things go wrong, because I know I can do my best, and He’ll make up the difference.
1:07
Jon Ryan Jensen: This is Jon Ryan Jensen, editor of the Church News. Welcome to the Church News podcast. Today, we are taking you on a journey of connection as we discuss news and events of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
From 2014 to 2023, Kevin J Worthen served as the 13th president of Brigham Young University. During this nine-year tenure and the roughly two decades serving at BYU — first as a faculty member and then as dean of the law school and later as BYU’s advancement vice president — before his presidential calling, he learned about the school’s mission statement “to assist individuals in their quest for perfection and eternal life.”
His wife, Peggy, has been by his side, leading in her own way since their marriage in the Provo temple in 1978. Together as husband and wife, parents and in some ways guardians to tens of thousands of students at the Church’s flagship university, they have learned many lessons about humility, service and trusting the prophetic revelations of scriptural prophets and modern priesthood leaders.
Kevin J Worthen and Peggy Worthen join us in this episode of the Church News podcast to discuss their unique perspective of BYU and the power of embracing the opportunities of service one step at a time.
President and Sister Worthen, thank you for joining us in the studio today.
Kevin J Worthen: Thank you for having us here.
Peggy Worthen: Thank you.
2:25
Jon Ryan Jensen: So, first things first, our listeners love to hear a little bit of the story of couples who come in and are on the podcast.
Would the two of you be willing to share a little bit about your story together as a couple?
Kevin J Worthen: Sure, do you want me to start? And then she’ll correct the record.
Jon Ryan Jensen: That’s how it always works.
Kevin J Worthen: We were both raised in Price, Utah, lived about three blocks from each other, but I did not really know Peggy until after my mission. She’s three years younger than I am, and in school, Price at the time, that meant she was in junior high the year I was a senior in high school. I went on my mission, came back from my mission, and she’d caught up with me, because then I was a sophomore at the college there, and she was a freshman.
And the other factor is she was not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at the time. So even though we lived just a short few blocks away from each other, we really didn’t interact much until after I came back from my mission. It was actually at a young single adult dance, a dance we have, so those do have some benefits from that. But I saw her and found her attractive, and things went from there in due course.
And we were engaged, how many months after? About eight, and engaged for a period of time, a long engagement. For part of the time, she was at the College of Eastern Utah, which was in Price. I was at BYU in Provo. I would drive home every weekend. I actually had a call in the young single adult branch, as they called them at that time, in Price. The whole time I was living in Provo before we got married.
3:54
Peggy Worthen: Yeah, I lived, like he said, right very near to him, and I knew who he was. Whenever we drove anywhere, we’d have to pass his house. So I knew who Kevin Worthen was, and I was interested in him for a long time.
Kevin J Worthen: That’s the story she tells now.
Peggy Worthen: No, that’s true. Anyway, I even remember going to that dance and noticing him and coming home. My mom always stayed up whenever I came home from a date. I loved that about her. Anyway, and she just would listen to me talk, and I said, “Kevin Worthen.” He was at this dance. He was newly home from a mission. And anyway, I just noticed him.
4:35
Kevin J Worthen: And so, I saw her at the dance. And I don’t know if I’d say it’s love at first sight. Maybe that’s what it was. But I was definitely attracted to her. I was double dating with a friend of mine, and I noticed that his date knew her. So I told him, as we’re leaving, I said, “Why don’t you drop my date off first,” which, you have to start with someone.
So I dropped her off, and then I started quizzing his date. “So, who was that? What do you know about her?” Everything else. So I got the information about her: “Is she dating someone? What’s the situation?” And then it was about three or four days later, right?
Peggy Worthen: A long time.
Kevin J Worthen: That I called her. A group of us were going up to Lagoon and called, and they said, “Who are you going to take?” I said, “Well, I’ll ask her.” I finally summoned up the courage to call her, after about three or four days. And I called her, and the first thing I said was this: “You may not know who I am. My name is Kevin Worthen. Do you know me?” Long pause. “Well, I think I do.” I thought, “Well, that’s not good.”
I said, “Well, a group of us are going up to Lagoon. Just wondering if you wanted to go along with us.” Little bit of pause. She said, “I’d have to ask my mother.” At that point, I covered the phone and said to my friend, “This is not going to work.” But I said, “OK, I’ll check back with you later now.”
5:48
Peggy Worthen: So, the day after the dance, my friend who he’s talking about called me and said, “You know Kevin Worthen? He was asking about you. So, he’s going to ask you out.” I said, “OK.” So I waited. You know teenage years — three days is a long time.
Jon Ryan Jensen: Yeah, and there’s no cell phones. You’ve got a phone on the wall.
6:10
Peggy Worthen: So, I don’t want to say I was a little annoyed, but I was sort of, “OK.” Anyway, he called, and I thought, “I have to play this cool,” because he just got home from a mission, and I worked at the College of Eastern Utah. It was chatter. It was whenever a returned missionary came off, they talked about him. So I thought, “I need to be cool.” And it’s the truth — I had to ask my mother. I felt I needed to ask my mother.
Kevin J Worthen: But her mother gave permission, we went on a date, and things went well from there.
Peggy Worthen: Yeah, it was good.
6:45
Jon Ryan Jensen: And Lagoon is a little bit away, so you get some time to drive and talk.
Peggy Worthen: They actually went to a friend’s sealing. Friend of ours
Kevin J Worthen: Yeah, a friend of ours was getting married, and so we went there, to the Salt Lake Temple first, and she waited with the other young ladies who were there. So that was great.
7:01
Jon Ryan Jensen: And so that was the beginning of what has become a decadeslong relationship for the two of you.
Kevin J Worthen: Forty-seven years this December.
Peggy Worthen: Good job.
Jon Ryan Jensen: She was so glad that you got that number right. That doesn’t always happen. I understand. But that means that for most of your married life — this year is the 30th anniversary of the Church’s proclamation to the world, known as the family proclamation to a lot of members of the Church.
And I’m really intrigued to know about you and raising your family, how you see principles from that document reflected in your own experience of having a family and then seeing other families around you start, especially when you’re serving at the school and you see the beginning of those family relationships.
What principles have you gleaned from your experience and those of those around you?
7:54
Kevin J Worthen: I think first of all what comes to mind is the centrality of marriage and family to the plan of salvation. I think only as a married couple do you begin to understand the great love Heavenly Father has for His children, because you have that same love for your children — probably not equaling His, but approximating in many ways. And many of the principles there that we do have, each of us has a divine nature and destiny. Not only us; that gives encouragement because raising children can be a bit trying at times, uncertain.
We were married, what, six years before we had children. In fact, our oldest is adopted, and so we went through that period in which we were trying to have children and didn’t, and the great blessings that came. But at times, after he was born, you sort of wonder, “Did we make the right choice?” But you gain confidence from applying those principles that are in the proclamation on the family, because they’re basic gospel principles that really is a good summation of the plan of salvation.
8:54
Jon Ryan Jensen: Sister Worthen?
Peggy Worthen: I always think about, when he mentioned, when you become a parent, you realize Heavenly Father’s love for you on a very small scale, and I always reflect on that. Whenever I doubt or have doubts about my relationship with my Heavenly Father, I always reflect on that, on my knowledge of how much I love my children. That’s how I affirm that Heavenly Father does love me to a greater extent, and that gives me great comfort.
9:24
Jon Ryan Jensen: I love that, because President Russell M. Nelson, I love the visual language that he so frequently uses, and it stays in my mind the number of times that he’s used “anchors” and “hinge points” as references to moments in our lives, moments in history. And that sounds like the anchor, one of the anchors, that you can go back to and say, “Yeah, I know, and I can have comfort from that anchor moment.”
So, you have those experiences. And for a lot of people who are listening to the podcast, they might know you exclusively from your time as president of BYU, and that puts a spotlight that can sometimes be a little uncomfortable as well.
What did that feel like to have all the attention that came with being the president of BYU? And how did you strive to provide an example as a couple to those who were watching you at the school?
10:18
Kevin J Worthen: Well, the example part was fairly easy for me because, with no exaggeration, Peggy’s the love of my life, and it’s easy to show that in public, even occasionally with a kiss, which I didn’t mind as well. And that was one role model where I felt comfortable in terms of saying, “Yeah, this is someone I feel like I’ve won the marriage lottery in a lot of ways.” But that was one where I said, “If they can do as well, that’s great.” There are other things where I wondered, “Well, I’m probably not the best model that they have.”
So there are moments when it’s a little awkward, because people expect you to act — in some ways it’s a good thing because they expect you to act a certain way, and it’s usually the best way that you should act in those kind of things. What was impressive to me, and it really is not anything personal, but no matter where we went, people would know — before I was president, I would quite often wear BYU things when we’re in Europe, when we’re traveling, other things, people would come up to us and say, “Are you from BYU?” It was surprising how often that would happen.
It was more personal in some ways. I was surprised even when we were back at Yale after I was president, we were at Grand Central Station one day, and a couple of people came up who had been at BYU sometime during the time I was president: “President Worthen, how are you doing?” On campus at Yale, several students stopped me to say, “President Worthen, how are you?” And I thought, “These are people I don’t know, and it’s really the office.” It’s their reflecting on their fond memories of BYU more than me.
11:44
Jon Ryan Jensen: But you’re the person they associate with their memories in that moment. Sister Worthen, how about you? To be the wife of the president of BYU, I know, also comes with its responsibilities and opportunities as well.
How did that time play out for you?
12:00
Peggy Worthen: Well, I was on call, sort of. I mean, if Kevin had a luncheon, I was there. I was home, and I just went along with his calendar. And I did take classes during that time. And I just remember, “Just be nice. Just be nice when people approach you.” It was a good experience. And people are so nice. People are so generous and nice and want to talk to you, and that’s always helpful.
12:30
Jon Ryan Jensen: And BYU, it’s known for having nice people, so you’re in a good place there. But when the time came, as with many other callings — I know this was a job, but it came to an end — and when it came to an end, you had an opportunity to go and, as you mentioned, represent the Church in a different way, going to Yale University. And that might be a time that more of our listeners are unfamiliar with.
What were you doing at Yale, and what did you learn by being out there on the East Coast?
13:03
Kevin J Worthen: It was a great experience, and it kind of came about because of some other people who were anxious to provide opportunities for me to do things. So I was approached by Yale Law School and said, “Would you be interested in spending a year there?” I had already planned that I would take some time off because I’d been away from the study and teaching of law for about 15-16 years, and I needed to catch up. And I could do that at BYU or at Yale. And I basically said — it turned out to be a great experience, because I had no responsibilities, I had no meetings to attend. That’s a change of pace.
And I said, “The first semester I won’t be able to teach.” I said, “I just don’t feel competent to do that.” I ended up teaching a seminar on Indian tribal sovereignty with seven students in it on the second semester that we were there. And that was the extent of my responsibilities. Otherwise, it was just to interact with the faculty, who were very bright; interact with the students, who were very bright; learn what I could about them and teach them what little I had to do. And so our schedule was quite flexible, and it was wonderful.
The people at Yale were extraordinary. They’re very bright people, intellectually very capable. I was pleasantly surprised — maybe I shouldn’t have been — at how open and accommodating they were. They had views much different from mine, but I never found any effort to disagree in a disagreeable way. They were very, both the faculty and the students, very interested in ideas and testing their ideas, and it was just a wonderful experience. The campus, I had not been there before, but it looks like what I imagined a campus would look at an Ivy League campus. It was like Hogwarts, all the buildings. We walked across the village green from the apartment we went to to the university, and it was just idyllic that way.
Jon Ryan Jensen: I don’t know what the village green is, but I can tell you immediately in my head, yes, a cross between Hogwarts and other Ivy League schools.
15:00
Kevin J Worthen: Yeah. So it was a wonderful experience all the way around. I’ll let Peggy talk, because she did some things there as well. But I think the biggest thing for us was the opportunity to be involved in the New Haven Ward. It was a great ward, a wonderful ward, that met in the institute building. There were probably 13 or 14 young married couples, one or both of whom were graduate students at Yale. And then it was an inner-city ward, with all the challenges and blessings that come along with that.
We were, during the time we were there, for part of the time, we were ward missionaries, which got us involved in missionary work. And just as part of the steady pace, it didn’t change with us, it didn’t accelerate with us. I think there were probably 10 people who were baptized in the year that we were there, many of whom were people of color, who added a little excitement and enthusiasm to the meetings and were just as faithful as could be.
A couple of the new converts, in fact, one of them, Todd, was confirmed the very first Sunday we were there, and he and another then-recent convert, at least once a month, were up to the temple in Hartford, which was not an easy place to get to. It wasn’t a matter of us walking down the street or driving for five minutes. But just being in the temple with them and having that opportunity was a wonderful thing.
16:15
Peggy Worthen: We were able to work closely with the sister missionaries. They had a couple of sister missionaries assigned to that ward, and they were inspirational. They were fearless. They were just lovely, lovely young ladies who would preach the gospel. And they would go to Walmart, the parking lot, and actually find people there and approach them, and then they would invite us to be on Zoom calls and phone calls. It was a real highlight to work with them, these sisters, and we’ve kept in touch with a number of them. And like Kevin mentioned, there’s so much enthusiasm with those new converts that they just grasped it.
17:03
Kevin J Worthen: I don’t think there was a Sunday — I’d have to check, because I’m prone to hyperbole — but I don’t recall a Sunday at which there was not at least one friend — which I came to learn, it’s not an “investigator” anymore, which is a better term to use, the term “friend” — but there was at least one friend, new friend, there almost every week. So it was just a great experience from that standpoint.
17:22
Jon Ryan Jensen: And Sister Worthen, for you, this was your first missionary experience, so you weren’t called as missionaries, but did you feel like you were a missionary serving there?
Peggy Worthen: It was a great opportunity, yes. I’ve never been able to — I’ve never served as a missionary before. So there’s always that hesitation of sharing the gospel, and the missionaries would call on me to share my testimony with them. And that was great. That was enlightening for me. And that ward was lovely. They’re like a family.
17:51
Jon Ryan Jensen: I just can’t imagine going from BYU, where you have hundreds of wards, if I’m not mistaken, all within this small proximity, and then to go to Yale and have this one ward experience.
Kevin J Worthen: Yeah, it was tremendous. But there was a feeling they knew each other, they nurtured each other, they helped each other. And there were some real challenges that several of them had in terms of life circumstances, but they were so anxious to help each other, and it was just a wonderful experience. And I will just again reiterate — Peggy says the missionaries were fearless. If you were hesitant to share the gospel, you soon lost that, because they were willing to talk to anybody, anytime, anywhere, invite them to church, and people would show up.
Peggy Worthen: And they were so happy. They were so happy. They were just delightful.
18:41
Jon Ryan Jensen: And that is infectious. I love that. So, that also was not a place where you would stay for an extended period. Now you have returned, and so I’m really interested to know: What is it that was most important to you to make sure you brought back?
Because I think about my mission and when I was coming home, and my mission president said, “What are the three things you’re going to bring home with you?” Is there something that when you were coming back, that you said, “We have to make sure we do this when we get back. We can’t lose this part of this experience”?
19:15
Kevin J Worthen: Part of it, for me, is the willingness to share the gospel in any situation. You do it in natural ways, and it’d come up, but there are plenty of opportunities to do that. And it’s too easy for me — I’ll just confess my own sins — to get in the mode of saying, “Look, everybody knows I’m LDS. Everybody I’m around is LDS.”
Jon Ryan Jensen: “Everybody in Provo is LDS.”
Kevin J Worthen: “So there’s no missionary opportunities.” But to see there really are, and just looking for ways in which, in normal, natural ways, you can share the gospel with people. And that was really brought home to me in an extraordinary way there.
Jon Ryan Jensen: Yeah.
19:50
Peggy Worthen: I brought home the love that the members there have for the Church, for their Heavenly Father. They are committed, and they make things work in that ward. They’re strikingly amazing. I love them. And there’s just a bond there that they — you find that in wards in Provo, but it was not convenient for them. Being a member of that ward is not convenient, I guess, for lack of a better word. But it spread out. It was a real eye-opening thing for me to actually see what they mean by the mission field and to experience that. So it was a very sweet experience.
20:30
Jon Ryan Jensen: So on one hand, you have the missionaries, and you’re seeing their example of courage and sharing the gospel. And on the other hand, you have the example of these members who are demonstrating courage in how they’re living the gospel.
Peggy Worthen: Yeah. They called a Young Women’s president, and she had counselors, but there were essentially no young women in there.
Kevin J Worthen: They had one or two who were less active, but there was no one who was coming to church who was a young woman, but they had a Young Women’s presidency.
Peggy Worthen: So, I was able to go with the Young Women’s president, pick up, we drive miles to pick up one girl to come back to an activity. I mean, the dedication was enlightening to me, and I want to be more like that and to really feel the dedication that they felt to their callings and experiences in that ward.
21:22
Jon Ryan Jensen: So you want that experience, and now you come back to Provo. And President Worthen, first for you, you come back and you’re back at BYU. And for some, that may feel awkward. I don’t know how it felt for you.
Was it weird to come back and not be there in the role of president this time?
21:41
Kevin J Worthen: It’s been easier than I would have thought, in many ways, in part because the two major differences is I spend a lot more time with students, and I spend a lot less time in meetings. So you start with that and say, “This is a good deal.” Being a faculty member is a really good thing. And I think having the year away was helpful as well, when President [C. Shane] Reese gets an opportunity to sort of put his stamp on things, get things going his way. And I don’t think I’ve had anyone, how well President Reese is doing, anyone who suggests to me, “Oh, things are not quite as good” or “Don’t you think we maybe should do this different?” I’ve experienced none of that, which speaks highly of the community at BYU. So it’s been easier than I thought.
The biggest challenge is, well, there were several. Teaching has changed in the last 15 years and uses technology a lot more.
Jon Ryan Jensen: Yeah. Especially the last five, yeah, sure.
Kevin J Worthen: You have entering freshmen who really, that’s all they’ve known. And I knew that intellectually. To experience the actual change was a bit different. And I’m still improving in that. I actually — one of the classes I taught last year and I’m teaching again this coming semester is the UNIV 101, the Freshman Foundations of Success course, which was started just last year for all of the students, was the first year they rolled it out for everyone. And these are 18-year-old freshmen who grew up in a different era than I did. So that’s been the one challenge, I suppose, in some ways; and a good challenge, good thing to learn about.
Jon Ryan Jensen: You’re teeing them up for success while still learning how they’re going to start that pathway.
Kevin J Worthen: Correct.
23:12
Jon Ryan Jensen: Yeah. And Sister Worthen, for you, did this role make you feel any different than when he had been serving there as president? Do you have a little bit more freedom?
Peggy Worthen: A lot more, yes.
Kevin J Worthen: I say tongue in cheek. She really misses devotionals and not speaking at them.
Peggy Worthen: Oh, yes. Give me an opportunity to speak at a devotional. I’m teasing. No, I’m grateful that we’re not doing that. I don’t go on campus as much, that’s for sure. We live very close, but I don’t find myself on campus anymore. I don’t need the parking lot or the special parking.
23:46
Jon Ryan Jensen: So now you’re more out and about in Provo and around there, which has grown a lot since this journey for the two of you started at BYU as well. When you think about the things that you’ve seen, the changes both in the city and for the university, how do you see the Lord’s hand guiding what happens at His flagship university?
How do you see Him guiding the up-and-coming generation of Latter-day Saints?
24:16
Kevin J Worthen: You know, there’s a couple of things that come to mind. No. 1 is how much things have been prepared for what’s happening now at the university and will happen in the future. With the trajectory that’s sort of forecast in a general way, BYU doesn’t change that much in some ways, because its mission remains the same. President Kimball’s second century address, which was given almost 50 years ago, is sort of as relevant — in fact, maybe more relevant — than when he particularly gave it at the time. And that makes it so that you can count on certain things being done in order and done the right way. And that within it allows innovation to take place in a remarkable way
I use as an example the new medical school at BYU. This gets back a little bit to your question about things that are different.
Jon Ryan Jensen: Lot of excitement around that.
Kevin J Worthen: Lot of excitement around that. The announcement was made about maybe a year after I’d stepped down. That kind of thing usually gets discussed years in advance. That was a surprise to me. That was the first I heard about it, is when they made the announcement. But that’s the fun thing to see how things happen and know, without knowing the particulars here, how that decision came by inspiration and knowing — at first, in fact, my son sent it to me, and he’s a practical joker, and BYU announces medical school, and he heard me tell — because I can give you several reasons why we did not start a medical school before, including cost and other things. So the first thing I thought is, “Oh, is it April Fools? No, that’s not it.
Jon Ryan Jensen: He’s photoshopping something.
Kevin J Worthen: He’s photoshopping something else. And so I’m looking at it for probably three or four minutes, thinking, “He’s left a clue here somewhere, I’m sure.” And then it finally dawned on me, “This is real.” And just sort of the thrill. In one sense, I didn’t feel sort of left out. I just thought, “This will be so fun to watch unfold, because I’m not sure” — in fact, my guess is the idea was not fully “Here’s every detail of what we’re going to do.” There was just enough of a decision to say, “This is the right thing,” and it gets exciting from there.
And that’s what I mean by it. Within the parameters that are there, being led by prophets, seers and revelators makes it so you, in some ways, can say, “As long as we are in alignment with them, we’ll keep on the path that the Lord has provided for this university.” And the opportunities will come up that will be significant and change it and help fulfill that school of destiny that it is.
26:41
Jon Ryan Jensen: I love hearing that. So, I’m really surprised as well to hear that you didn’t know about that. To me, that seems like something maybe you were at Yale waiting to see when that would be announced.
Kevin J Worthen: Yeah. And there were things — buildings and some other things — when I said, “Oh yeah, this is happening. This is happening.” That was a complete surprise. And as I say, in some ways, sort of just a delight to me to say — I did check with President Reese. I said, “I assume you heard about this before they made the announcement.” He said, “Yeah, we’ve been working on this for a little while.” But that’s one of the benefits of being led by prophets, seers and revelators.
27:13
Jon Ryan Jensen: You talked about your background in the law, studying and teaching the law, and I read something in an interview with you and wanted to get your perspective on this from a Church standpoint. If I can read the quote, talking about the United States Supreme Court, you said, talking about the current Supreme Court, you said, “I mean, it’s a different court, different personalities, all those kinds of things, but I think the general tenor is the same.” And you follow that by saying that what has changed is maybe how law reviews or journals give their opinions on the court’s decisions.
And I read that and was thinking immediately about the Church and Church members. We have scriptures. We have the words of living prophets, but we also now have so many different ways for those who are members or who are not of our faith to give their opinions on those same scriptures and on the words of modern prophets and apostles.
I’d love to hear your thought on the importance of studying the scriptures themselves, or listening to the prophets themselves, versus the opinions about those things.
28:28
Kevin J Worthen: To provide the context of the legal studies, the opinions of the court themselves speak for themselves. And then, as you say, it gets narrowed down or interpreted through law review. Sometimes they’re longer than the opinions. But quite often now with social media, where a headline will come out and say, “Here’s what the court did,” you read the opinions, and that’s not really what they did. That’s how it gets portrayed. So it’s part of the ethos in which we’re living.
Jon Ryan Jensen: A one-sentence opinion that somebody gives on a 100-page.
28:55
Kevin J Worthen: Judge Thomas Griffith — who is a former federal judge and has taught from time to time at Harvard, Yale, all the good law schools — He finally got with his students where he said they wanted to complain about a case. He said, “I won’t talk to you until you certify that you’ve read the entire opinion twice. Because until then, you’re just reflecting what somebody else is telling. Do it yourself.”
I’ll now transition, saying I think that’s a good practice for people who have questions about the Church, to say, “If you really want to know what section 88 means, go read section 88 twice. Then we’ll have a discussion about what it really means.” And I think in society in general, that’s happening, because of social media. It’s hard to convey nuance and depth by that. And pretty soon, people are chasing, they’re trying to be clever rather than being enlightening. And that’s hard to do, and most people don’t do it very well.
And so, what you get is sort of a clever take on whatever it is. It may not be accurate, but it’s clever. And the fact that it’s the most important information we have to go to the original source is important, and, as I say, I worry a little with the rising generation. They’re just not used to getting information that way. It really is on TikTok or Instagram or wherever it is, and that’s how they get their information about it, instead of going to the source. And particularly when you have a source as good as the scriptures, directly from God and only one step removed with prophets, seers and revelators.
I think that’s one of the challenges we have, is sort of making that, say, not only attractive, but imperative for the rising generation and for us of the older generation. It’s sometimes a little bit — I’ll use the pejorative term — as a little bit of laziness on our part. It’s just easier to read a 15-word sentence of what it is rather than try and get through the entire scripture, but we deprive ourselves of the blessings that come, in this case, from revelation that comes from that hard work of reading the scriptures.
30:50
Jon Ryan Jensen: It’s interesting to hear you talk about it that way. I think back to when I was in school. I did not study law, but studying journalism, my journalism professors, who were also not members of the Church, taught a similar principle, saying, “You don’t get to give an opinion the day after the State of the Union address, unless you actually sat down and read the State of the Union address, not listened to the intermittent standing ovations, but read the words that that were said.” And it really changed for us as journalism students how we reported on those things, because when you take that emotion out and the sound bite part out and just read the document, it’s different.
For us as Latter-day Saints and wanting to be good examples of sharing the gospel, do you have any thoughts then on how — because you’re doing this as a law professor, helping someone understand — how do Latter-day Saints best absorb a message that is shared at general conference and then be in a good position to share what is meant and not just what is attention-getting?
31:51
Kevin J Worthen: I think first, obviously, start with the original source. And then, social media can help. We were just reflecting; I was saying to Peggy — she does a much better job of this than I do — when she does exercise, she listens to conference talks and relistens to several of them, using that time that otherwise would be filled with something else. I think that’s a good use of social media in that sense. It’s media in the form of the talks themselves.
But I think somehow getting people to see the benefit that comes from increased understanding, both increased in terms of revelation and inspiration that comes with just the enlightenment that comes from saying, struggling with the text and saying, “I’m not quite sure I understand what this means. What have prophets said about this?” And then finding answers. I think if we can get people, there is something deep within us that resonates with that. We want to absorb knowledge. We want to learn things. That’s part of our eternal DNA. And I think if you get people with that experience that can help them go away from the tide of where they’re getting information otherwise.
32:55
Jon Ryan Jensen: How you’re saying that reminds me of something that we’ve been studying recently within our “Come, Follow Me” course of study in Doctrine and Covenants, section 90, when we read the revelation, “For it shall come to pass in that day” — this is verse 11 — “For it shall come to pass in that day that every man shall hear the fulness of the gospel in his own tongue, and in his own language, through those who are ordained unto this power.”
So it’s not just a matter of AI translating the Book of Mormon and making it available, but it’s the source itself as well, somebody who’s ordained and has power to share that message in that language. So the source and message have to kind of go together.
33:31
Kevin J Worthen: Yes. And I think if you just get people to think a little bit, if you said, “If God were to give you instruction, would you really want a truncated version of that, or would you really want to know the whole thing?” And I think, again, most people would logically and even emotionally say, “If that’s really where I’m getting the information from, the more direct I can get it from Him, the better the information.”
33:53
Jon Ryan Jensen: Sister Worthen, I’m really intrigued, and I’ve wanted to ask this question before of the wife of somebody who studies law and practices law.
Is this how the conversations go when the two of you are studying the scriptures together? Do you get a legal interpretation of what the two of you study in the scriptures?
34:09
Peggy Worthen: He’s very helpful. I appreciate his comments and his help when I need it with understanding the scriptures. He helps me do that. I appreciate that. He reads a lot. He has a lot of — so I do ask him questions about, “What do you think about this certain thing in the scriptures?” And he’s very helpful to help me understand that better.
Kevin J Worthen: There’s a fine line, though, between — lawyers learn by asking questions, and I’ve learned nobody likes to be cross-examined in any setting, and certainly not in a trial. But beyond that, we say, “Why is that?” It’s sort of the tone of voice that may be part of it.
34:54
Jon Ryan Jensen: Sister Worthen, you sound just like my wife when she says, “OK, Ryan, that that was very nice. Thank you for sharing the news version of that chapter. But what are you really feeling about this?”
Peggy Worthen: Well, I have had to say, “I’m not on the witness stand here,” but he’s very thorough. I really appreciate his knowledge and his — he remembers things well, and I appreciate the help that he gives me. Especially when, since I am a convert, I’ve been a convert for a long time, I mean, I’ve been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a long time. And because he has read a lot, and I can turn to him and say, “What do you think about this?” And I trust his counsel and his opinion. So that’s been very helpful.
35:44
Jon Ryan Jensen: But I appreciate the — I wish people could see the looks between the two of you right now, because I think that for so many couples, it is like this, that you have your own understanding. Our testimonies are built on the same foundation, but they’re built differently. And to know that the two of you still are continuing to grow in your testimonies, in your own personal and unique ways, but that you can share those experiences together, is really sweet.
Are there now, as you look forward to your future, we’ve talked about where you’ve been and where you sit now, what does the future hold for the Worthens? What do you look forward to doing next?
36:27
Peggy Worthen: That’s a really good question. We talk about this often, but I personally have found that throughout our lives, the Lord has taken care of us. We pray about it, we contemplate what we can do, what is in our future, but Heavenly Father has guided us along each step. So we rely a lot on Heavenly Father and inspiration and direction.
And sometimes we go, “We’re not sure what we’re doing,” and I think that’s what we’re doing right now, is “What will we be doing in a year from now?” And we just look at each other and go, “I’m not sure, but it will work out.” We’ll be doing what we’re supposed to do, and I have great faith in that. For example, when he was released from being president, we knew that that was coming, and it was always sort of, “What will we do?” But things have happened; it’s been supplied to us divinely. We’ve been helped along the way. So it’s a big question mark.
37:38
Kevin J Worthen: Yeah, that’s to be determined. And I think Peggy’s described it well in terms of just being open to that. It’s nice — three years ago, none of our grandchildren lived in Utah. We have eight of them. They now all live in Utah County, and their age is 2 to 13. And it is also as good a job as being a law professor is. It’s also fun to be around them, and some realization that they’re only going to be young once. So that’s sort of part of the equation that we’ve thought about as well. But just being open to opportunities that come along and trust the Lord that He’ll make it known what it is that He’ll use us for next.
38:18
Peggy Worthen: We teach the 16- and 17-year-olds in our ward. We did that before we went to Yale, and then we got back, and they called us again to do that. And that’s really been instructionally helpful to be able to teach them and to learn. The Church has done such a marvelous job at giving you “Come, Follow Me.” They have so much information that is so helpful and inspiring, and it’s been good to be able to teach them, and it’s been a good job, a good calling. I want to keep doing that.
38:54
Jon Ryan Jensen: As the father of a 15- and 17-year-old that would be candidates to be in your class, I can only imagine how fun it would be to have the two of you as teachers with all the experiences that you’ve had.
Peggy Worthen: So we’re going to do that.
Kevin J Worthen: That’s a pretty good calling too, let me tell you.
39:11
Jon Ryan Jensen: And I’m really grateful for the context that you just gave to your decision-making process, because for many — and again, going back to what we talked about at the beginning with the family proclamation — there are roles that each of us has to fill, but there’s also a role of counseling and counseling with each other. And again, even just watching the two of you with your interactions, learning how to counsel with each other and making decisions as a couple seems like the part that sets you up for success to be prepared as a couple to do whatever the next calling is, or whatever the Spirit inspires you to do.
Do you find that that counseling with each other came naturally, or is that something that you have developed more and more over time?
39:55
Kevin J Worthen: I think it’s a combination of both. I think from the beginning we did, but one of the things that I have grown to have a stronger testimony of is the power of counseling. And I think it starts with the marriage couple. We used to couch in terms of communication and everything else. But at BYU, that was also one of the lessons that I came away from, was the importance of councils, with the President’s Council, with seeing councils operating in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with the First Presidency, with the Quorum of the Twelve.
I think that’s an eternal principle. It’s not just sort of a nice way to make our way through this life. God identifies Himself in Moses 7 as a “Man of Holiness” and a “Man of Counsel” (verse 35). I think of all the things that He would choose to characterize Himself as, “Man of Counsel” is one of them. And you find that that is a great way in which it invites inspiration, but it involves people in a process that’s different than when you’re just unilaterally making decisions or discussing things. I don’t know, I think it was more organic with us, but I’ve seen it now more systematic in almost every setting I’m at. I’m a lot smarter when I do counseling with other people, and I think that’s a very powerful principle.
41:05
Jon Ryan Jensen: Love that. Well, I am really grateful for the time that you took to be with us today on the Church News podcast. We have a tradition in the podcast where we love to give our guests the last word, an opportunity to share with our listeners something that you have learned through the process and experiences that you’ve had in life. And so, Sister Worthen, we’ll start with you, and then President Worthen, with you.
Sister Worthen, what is it that you know now, having been through the life experiences you’ve had?
41:32
Peggy Worthen: That I have more trust in my Heavenly Father, and no matter what life experience I’ve had, I can rely on my Heavenly Father to give me counsel and direction, and I know He loves me, and He knows me. I’ve come to rely on that greatly, because I, in every situation, if I’m doing what I’m asked to do, if I’m doing what Heavenly Father wants me to do, I have received so much guidance, even in the little things. I look for the little things sometimes, when things aren’t going well. I pay attention to the little tender mercies, and I pay attention to that a lot, and there are a lot of tender mercies, if you’re willing to pay attention.
And I know my Savior loves me. I know my Heavenly Father loves me. And I’m grateful for that knowledge, and it is constant. And I say that in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
42:41
Kevin J Worthen: What I know now better than I did before is God is good. He is as good as He says He is. He is as loving as He says He is, and we can’t comprehend how good He is and how much He loves us. I think the more I turn to Him and the more I see people who turn to Him, the more convinced I am that we only see faintly how much He cares for us, how anxious He is to bless us. As Peggy said, to be willing to trust Him, to be open and recognize His hand is a tremendous thing.
He loves us in ways we can’t fathom, in ways that are embodied by His Son, Jesus Christ, whom I love with all my heart. He gave Him as a sacrifice to us, and He is as good, He can take all things, all things, and turn them to our good. I’m convinced of that. I’ve seen it in which I get in a situation and I think, “There is no way I can get out of this. There is no way out.” And there’s always a way out with Him. And it’s led me to trust Him more and to get less excited and less concerned when things go wrong, because I know I can do my best.
And too often, we ask ourselves the wrong question. We ask, “Am I good enough for this?” That’s not the right question. The question is, “Is God as good as He says He is?” Because if He is, then I don’t have to worry as much about how good I am. I just do my best, and He’ll make up the difference. I’ve come to feel that in a very powerful and personal way in my life, and I’m grateful for that. And I bear that witness in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
44:18
Jon Ryan Jensen: Thank you for listening to the Church News podcast. I’m your host, Church News editor Jon Ryan Jensen. I hope you learned something today about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and had your faith in the Savior increase by looking through the Church News window as a living record of the Restoration. Please subscribe, rate and review this podcast so it can be accessible to more people. And if you enjoyed the messages we shared today, please share the podcast with others. Thanks to our guests; to my producer, KellieAnn Halvorsen; and to others who make this podcast possible. Join us every week for a new episode. Find us on your favorite podcasting channels or with other news and updates about the Church on TheChurchNews.com or on the Church News app.
