In President Russell M. Nelson’s October 2023 talk, “Think Celestial!” he declared, “Mortality is a master class in learning to choose the things of greatest eternal import.”
For aging members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, this “learning” remains in force as they find themselves looking for the best ways to serve in the Church and with their families.
On this episode of the Church News podcast, Norman Hill — BYU associate professor and author of the Deseret News series “Better With Age” — shares his insights into aging with faith with Church News editor Ryan Jensen.
Transcript:
Jon Ryan Jensen: This podcast was recorded prior to the passing of President Russell M. Nelson, 17th President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some edits have been made to note his passing, and some interviews include remarks made before his death.
0:23
Norman Hill: You know, at some point in time, we all aspire to get older. And I think the more we gain an eternal perspective, the more it helps us with the ordinary circumstances of life. So, what is it that I can learn, if I’m younger, from this experience about aging faithfully, about living longer better, about making the most of this master class that President Nelson has emphasized to us? This master class, these learning experiences, are not only going to help me be a better person but prepare me for a future eternity that I strongly believe in.
1:12
Jon Ryan Jensen: This is Jon Ryan Jensen, editor of the Church News. Welcome to the Church News podcast. Today, we are taking you on a journey of connection as we discuss news and events of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Members and friends of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints recently celebrated the 101st birthday of the Church’s President, President Russell M. Nelson. And while the average age of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is as high as it’s ever been, it isn’t uncommon for Church members around the world to live and serve faithfully into their 70s, 80s, 90s and beyond, just like the Church’s most senior leaders. But many of them find themselves looking for the best ways to serve in the Church and with their families, and many families and wards want to know the best ways to love and serve the veteran members around them.
On today’s Church News podcast, we’re joined by Norman C. Hill, a former mission president in the Ghana Accra West Mission and the Sierra Leone Freetown Mission. He is from Texas but lives now in southern Utah, and we speak together from the BYU Broadcasting Building on the campus of Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah.
Brother Hill, thanks for joining us on the Church News podcast today.
Norman Hill: Thank you. It’s so good to be here. I’m really looking forward to the discussion.
2:27
Jon Ryan Jensen: As am I. I have had members of my family who have lived well into their 90s, and I have learned different ways that they have approached life, and I’m excited for us to talk about what you have seen and experienced as well today.
2:42
Norman Hill: You bet. Thank you. I think one of the things that’s important to get started with is all of our experiences are so different, and it doesn’t matter when we lived, how long we lived or where we lived; we’re each very unique. And if there’s anything that President Nelson has emphasized, it’s that individual uniqueness and divinity, that is a spark within all of us. And he’s a great example of that in so many ways, both what he says and what he does.
3:08
Jon Ryan Jensen: I think so many people see President Nelson at 101 and say, “He doesn’t look like he’s slowing down that much. He’s defying laws of aging. And in some ways, that’s true, and in some ways, living some of the gospel principles have set him up for that.
What have you observed about the principles the Church has that may help individuals be prepared to live a little bit longer than maybe the average around the world?
3:34
Norman Hill: Well, I think there are a couple of things, and specifically that President Nelson has emphasized. Among his messages is: It’s quality that matters, not quantity. It’s not how long we live but how well we live. And that makes a big difference.
There is data from the University of Michigan to say that optimism is learned, first, and secondly, an optimistic view of life not only enhances our outlook but enhances our ability to live longer. Longevity and optimism are closely correlated to the point they’re almost causality, that if we are optimistic — which we can learn; it doesn’t matter. Sometimes people say, “Oh, I was born that way.” No, it’s something that you’re able to learn. And as we learn optimism, it enhances not only our physical cell biology but our emotional well-being and our spiritual happiness as well.
4:32
Jon Ryan Jensen: I love hearing you say that, because I think about this year — it’s 2025; we’re coming up on the fifth anniversary of President Nelson encouraging people around the world to give thanks. And he talked about the benefits that come from that. I think those are closely related to what you’re talking about, that attitude of gratitude, that optimism. Those are things that, regardless of your age, you can learn to do and benefit from them.
4:55
Norman Hill: Absolutely. And gratitude, like optimism, is not only learned but enhances physically as well as emotionally and spiritually, not just our outlook but our well-being. People are talking these days not just about living longer but about living well; not just about lifespan but even a term that’s being used of “health-span” or “joy-span.” It’s how well we live. And President Nelson has emphasized that.
He said that life is a master class in gaining the experiences we need for here, for the next step into our eternal progression, and that sense of always progressing. So it doesn’t matter what age we are, whether we’re 20 or 50 or 90; that’s still learning, that’s still looking for new experiences. Being able to get the most out of this master class is what life is all about. And he’s both exemplified that and emphasized it.
5:57
Jon Ryan Jensen: Well, I want to kind of get to this, then, because there are a lot of individuals who express a feeling of, “Oh, well, I’ve hit a certain age, and now I feel like whether it’s in the family or professionally or within the Church and Church callings,” that they’ve been, in a way, “put out to pasture.”
And I wonder what your perspective is for those who feel they’ve been put out and for those who are looking for a way to help someone avoid feeling that they have been kind of put out and away from the rest of the group.
6:30
Norman Hill: It’s a really good question, Ryan, and it’s one that I think older people sometimes feel like they have been put out to pastor, to the point that I wrote an article about it in the Liahona. It’s in the April Liahona, “Released but Not Obsolete: Purposeful Service at Any Age.” And in it, I quote a number of Church leaders who have been released and then what have they done after that.
One of those is Julie Bangerter Beck, who was the general Young Women’s president. And when we talked about getting put out to pasture, she had a great response. She said, “When that happens, jump the fence.” And that’s become, for me, a kind of a byway as well: “All right, when someone tries to put me in a box or say I’m out to pasture, jump the fence.” Well, what does that mean pragmatically?
For her, she emphasized that since being released, this has given her a lot of unstructured time. She’s able to choose where she spends her time and what she does. And she told me about her father, Elder Grant Bangerter, who, when he was released as a general authority, for a while didn’t have a calling, then was called to advise the deacons quorum. And during that period of time, he didn’t even know how to use a computer. But as family history has evolved and everything is all computerized, he had a deacon teach him how to use the computer for family history. And together, they taught others in the Aaronic Priesthood. And together, they taught others in their ward.
And before he passed away, their Aaronic Priesthood and ward, all through the instigation of Elder Bangerter and this young deacon, took over 10,000 names to the temple. He didn’t see the formal Church calling as something that now he lost and there was no recovery from. He said, “OK, what’s next?”
One of the things President Oaks has emphasized is, in the Church, there’s no stepping up or stepping down; it’s only stepping forward or stepping backward. And I love that kind of idea. It’s: “How do we step forward? How do we progress? What do we learn new?” And there are great examples from those who have been released from senior callings in the Church, who now take their unstructured time and do things very differently.
In my own case, I’m a substitute seminary teacher, and it’s been a great opportunity for me to try to say — when I go into a group of 14-, 15-, 16-, 17-year-olds for a day or two, and they know I’m only there temporarily — “How do I relate?” And my goal is to try to listen deeply, to not presume I have any kind of answers. I have a few perspectives, and there’s lesson material to provide.
But by listening deeply, I’ve been able to make some great friends. I go to sports games. I go to dance recitals with young people that I’ve met as a substitute seminary teacher. But otherwise, I don’t know. And their face brightens up: There’s some older guy who they don’t know very well but who came to one of their events. It’s enriched my life as well as, I think, communicated that I wasn’t just there to teach a lesson, but I was there to learn something from them.
Years ago, I was volunteering at a homeless shelter in Philadelphia, and there was a great message board as I went in that I’ve never forgotten: “If you’re here to help us, we don’t need your help; please leave. If you’re here to learn, let’s do it together.” And I approach experiences, like substitute teaching in seminary, in that same way. I think that’s what Elder Bangerter did. I think that’s what Sister Beck is emphasizing. I think that’s, in a way, what President Nelson is emphasizing as well with this idea of a master class. Mortality is a master class.
10:46
Jon Ryan Jensen: The things that you’re sharing and that you’re talking about, as you said, you’ve written articles in the Liahona. You also write for the Deseret News in a section called “Better With Age.”
What are you learning from that? I assume you’re listening to people who are in those same situations. What are you listening or hearing from them, and what would you share with us about those experiences?
11:06
Norman Hill: I’ve loved the opportunity this past year to contribute to this newsletter “Better With Age” with the Deseret News. It’s revitalized me in some ways, mostly to be more observant. So, I’ve spent time not only talking to people but observing and listening as well. And from that, I think there’s a number of life lessons that I’ve gained.
One is sometimes the articles I write for “Better With Age” are a little whimsical. I wrote one on “Why Is No One Ironing Anymore?” And of course —
Jon Ryan Jensen: I have the same question.
Norman Hill: Yeah, I have a friend who says, “If I have to iron it, I’m giving it to Deseret Industry.” And others who would say, “You know, ironing is just one of those relaxing events that I can do and not have to think a lot about.” As I’ve interviewed people, I’ve had some great stories.
So, one of the stories — actually a group of friends, Mark Eubank being one of them, the former TV weather forecaster — we observed, Ron Bracken and Marriner Rigby. Ron, 84 years old, dealing with bone cancer. Marriner in his middle 90s with a variety of health issues. Neither one of them said, “Life has passed me by” or “Why do I have these maladies?” but instead said, “OK, this is what life has dealt me. These are my cards. Now what do I do about it?”
And in Marriner and Ron’s case, rather than sit at home and feel lonely or left out or dealing with two illnesses that were very painful, they began walking together. They began walking and talking. And I believe walking and talking in the neighborhood, Marriner with his walker, literally, prolonged both of their lives, enriched both of their lives. And they have become, for me, a kind of a banner of: There are many possibilities despite some of the limitations that may come to us. And of course, something like cancer can occur at any age.
A second kind of thing I think I’ve learned from “Better With Age” is that we all have experiences that we would like to share. And so, if there’s someone who’s willing to listen, we’ll learn a great deal. I have a daughter who emphasizes, especially with teenagers, “Adults want to give advice. Teenagers don’t particularly want to listen to advice.”
Jon Ryan Jensen: Were you listening at my house last night?
13:53
Norman Hill: But if we’ll observe teenagers — and part of listening is just observing. So, Elder [David A.] Bednar wrote an article some years ago about being “quick to observe” and how in the scriptures, that means being obedient. I tried to teach missionaries to be very observant of the people they were teaching: What were the cues that they were giving? And by being really good observers, we’re able to share experiences that we might not otherwise be able to have come to mind.
In “Better With Age,” there’s tons of stories. My goal is to take some evidence-based issue — maybe it’s overprescription, as a for instance, which is a big issue these days for people who are older. What are the scientists saying about it? And then try to find one or two experts, somebody who is a subject-matter expert, and what’s their observation? And then, more importantly, I’m trying to find two or three or four people who are living that, whatever that experience is, and have something to say about it.
As a for instance: So, one of the things that data would say today is one of the most important things you can do to avoid dementia as well as live longer is strength training. And there’s a book called “Super Agers.” Everybody has thought in the past, “Well, it’s all about your genes, and there’s not much you can do about your genes.” My wife likes to say that genes load the gun, but choices pull the trigger. And it’s what we do with what we have that makes the most difference.
And that’s what “Super Agers” emphasizes as well, is that things like physical strength training has an enormous benefit with a number — not just physical health but emotional and spiritual and brain health as well. And so, I try to write about those kind of things.
16:03
Jon Ryan Jensen: What you said about being observant really resonates with me, because so many times in the scriptures we read the counsel from prophets or from Heavenly Father and the Savior to those who they are teaching the importance of remembering. And in order to remember, you really do have to be observant of the things going on around you.
16:24
Norman Hill: Yes, you do. And taking the time to get outside your own perceptual limitations and say, “What is it that I’m really seeing?” So, there’s lots of studies about eyewitnesses in police cases and law cases.
Jon Ryan Jensen: Impeccable judgment, all of them.
Norman Hill: But the data would say people are not very good at observing. And when they film a situation and then listen to eyewitnesses, there’s a fair number of discrepancies. It takes some patience to be a good observer, but being a good observer makes all the difference.
So, in my ward, there’s a young man who is in his middle 20s, didn’t serve a mission, didn’t go to college. He’s a very hard worker. He’s — because of some personality characteristics — he’s not well integrated in the ward. I asked him when I had an assignment to go give a blessing to someone at the hospital to come with me. And the two of us had a great conversation, partially because we were in the car and we had to talk to each other, a captive audience. And that was a bridge. I asked him a few weeks later, when there was a sister who was not part of a formal ministering assignment but somewhat felt left out. And we went together, and he had a great time visiting.
And, again, there was just the three of us, and here’s somebody new who could hear things that he was interested in and be able to talk about. I was later asked to be a semipermanent Nursery substitute, and so I asked him, “Hey, come with me, if you don’t mind. I’ve been asked, but sometimes I need to have a companion.” Sometimes there would be someone already in the nursery who would be another adult. But he was very willing, and he’s had a ton of fun visiting with sometimes 2-year-olds who just want to have somebody to be able to play with for a short period of time and color and listen to a lesson. And it’s been a way for him to become much more integrated into the ward.
18:46
Jon Ryan Jensen: When I was a young man, I lived in a ward — I lived in the neighborhood that my father had grown up in — and many of the people in that neighborhood had known him when he was a boy. And now they were to a point in their lives where physically, it was a little bit more challenging to attend Sunday Church meetings, specifically sacrament meeting. And we had the opportunity, the few young men who we had, Aaronic Priesthood holders, to go and take the sacrament to some of those who couldn’t come.
And when I hear you telling that story, that brings back so many tender memories for me, because I don’t know that I cared much to be observant to what my parents were teaching me, but there was certainly something that clicked for me to sit down in a room with someone who had lived through things that I was learning about in history classes in junior high and high school. And to hear them tell me, “I was there, and here’s what I learned, and here’s what I hope that you don’t have to go through.” Those were such beautiful learning moments for me, and I don’t think my parents ever could have orchestrated the great teaching experiences that I had sitting in the homes of those individuals.
And so, those service opportunities back and forth are beneficial, I think, for both sides. And I’m grateful to have had that chance.
20:08
Norman Hill: They make a great deal of difference. And someone who is not a parent or grandparent who takes an interest in someone who is a young person makes an enormous difference. In the article about being put out to pasture, feeling sometimes that we’re not part of the mainstream, I wrote about Kimball Carter, who’s now on a mission in Argentina. His family was always very active. But he and I kind of hit it off, and I attended some of his basketball and soccer games.
And one of the things he said is, “Hey, Brother Hill, you’re one of my biggest fans, outside of my family. I kind of know you’re there,” and it’s almost like being a talesman. It’s not what I actually said or did; it’s showing up. There’s an old phrase of, “Showing up is 90% of life.” It’s not just what we do; it’s being available. It’s showing up. And I love that kind of perspective of young people who sometimes have lots of people telling them what to do, not near enough people who are just showing up.
So, the Church has a wonderful linkage to Global Youth Service Day, typically in the latter part of April or May. And a couple of years ago, when I was serving as a Young Men’s adviser, we had a joint project with the Bureau of Land Management to plant wildflowers in southern Utah. There’s some research that certain kinds of wildflowers actually help control wildfires when they occur. It’s a bit of a firebreak.
And so, the Bureau of Land Management helped us and provided seed, and we found places where we could have firebreaks. And the youth in our ward still talk about this event, where together, nobody was really giving or sharing stories. We were just working side by side. We were doing something that we all knew was going to have some physical benefits, going to help not only beautify but potentially help as firebreaks. And it’s one of those seminal kind of experiences that everybody comes back to. I think it’s doing things together, as well, that makes a difference.
22:37
Jon Ryan Jensen: You also have a unique perspective on some of those types of experiences, because part of life is the fact that some of those who we love pass on before we wish they would. And you yourself have lived through a spouse passing away and navigating life after finding the person you love.
What have you learned through that personal experience and associating with those who’ve also gone through that? And what would you say to those who want to know how to help somebody who’s experienced that?
23:14
Norman Hill: My wife passed away while I was serving as a mission president, and we were almost to the end of our mission. Somebody said, “It was almost like you were in a victory lap.” Things were almost complete. And it was a really hard time for me. Honestly, Ryan, it was a very dark time. For eight, nine months, I wallowed in self-pity. I’d like to think that I didn’t, but I did.
And as a result of that, I think one of the things it’s helped me have is more empathy in a way that I wouldn’t have had otherwise. I also had some what’s termed “survivor guilt,” that I was going to be able to spend time with my grandchildren and children, and my wife was going to miss out on some of those experiences.
And eight or nine months after she passed away, I was actually on a campout with one of my grandsons, Kai, and I had a very personal spiritual experience that she was aware of us, that she saw us, that she was able to see and participate with her grandchildren, who lived in different places, in ways that I wasn’t able to, because I was physically in one location and didn’t have the same perspective that she had. And that was very reassuring for me, that sense that not only was she OK but that she was able to have experiences with her grandchildren in unique ways even different than me, richer and fuller.
And that enabled me to not feel sorry for myself in the same way that I was, to somehow pull back and say, “OK, now these are my experiences. How do I both go forward and, to some extent, be a grandma and a grandpa, do things that she would do in the way that she would do them, as well as things that I would do ordinarily?” And it’s a work in progress. I’ve had now the experience and blessing of being able to marry a wonderful woman whose husband passed away from cancer. And together, we have 42 bonus grandchildren. Five are married. We’re going to have our first great-grandchild at the end of November.
Jon Ryan Jensen: That’s just a few football games and just a few dance recitals.
25:49
Norman Hill: That’s right. And somebody said, “Well, how do you even keep track of their names? We do, and we send the grandchildren a $25 gift certificate. And for some of them, that’s a lot of money, depending on their age. For others, it’s like, “Oh, that’s only $25. What am I going to do with that?” And we call and sing “Happy Birthday” to them, whether they like it or not. And it’s been a great experience for me.
I once read a Hindu proverb: “To love one’s own children more than all children is the beginning of war.” And when Stephanie and I met and were planning to be married, I asked myself, “Can I not only love her children and grandchildren like my own, but can I broaden that?” And I felt a personal confirmation that I could. And so that enabled me to go forward with faith, frankly, to say: This unexpected new experience of a second marriage, with all the baggage that I had, that somehow she was going to be able to figure out how to work through that, and I was going to be able to love her children and grandchildren in a similar way to my own.
27:12
Jon Ryan Jensen: I love that. I had a step-grandfather as well, and he certainly took great interest in things that I loved and that my siblings and cousins loved. And I know we certainly benefited from that throughout his life.
Right now, for grandparents who are listening, what is it that grandparents can do — or great-aunts, great-uncles — to promote faith-enriching values to their family and extended family?
27:39
Norman Hill: I think there’s some things you can do formally and some things informally. So, formally, “grandma camps” or “cousin camps” have become fairly popular.
Jon Ryan Jensen: My kids love those.
Norman Hill: Yeah, we have friends, Phil and Sherry, who have had grandma camps for years, and they do it at specific ages with their grandchildren, and it’s almost become like a rite of passage. I think that helps a lot. I think informally, it’s not just what we say but kind of who we are that makes a big deal in their lives as well.
And so, informally, we try to send texts to our grandchildren, very personal. There’s something about a very personal text — “I was thinking about you today,” and then share something that we know they’re interested in. So we have one who’s very interested in cooking, and my wife will send recipes to those grandchildren. Others who are really into fiction and reading specific books, we try to find out what their books are that they’re reading.
We’ve tried — our children and grandchildren live in very diverse places, from Illinois to Hawaii, and so we’ve learned to do some things virtually. Every Sunday, once a week, we have “Come, Follow Me” with our grandchildren. We’re doing them in parts. We don’t have all of them together. Sometimes that works well. Sometimes it doesn’t work so well. Sometimes we just want to talk, and we don’t force any kind of gospel conversation.
I think that’s a kind of thing that helps as well, that both the formal weekly Zoom discussions, the informal text, the noticing what’s of interest to a particular grandchild and doing something about it. We’ve tried a virtual book club. We read Brandon Sanderson’s “Elantris” together, and that worked pretty well, but we haven’t been able to keep it going. And we’ve reminded ourselves, “You know, there’s another opportunity.” Again, an informal and formal kind of combined.
I think it comes back to — I have a friend, Faye Matthews, who’s in her 90s. She has some physical limitations. She asked me just when I was visiting, “Why am I still here? I have macular degeneration in my eyes. I can’t drive anymore.” She’s very alert. She’s able to get out of the house, but only —
Jon Ryan Jensen: But she’s aware of the things now that she can’t do.
30:26
Norman Hill: She is, yeah. And one of the things I said to her is, “Faye, you’re like a cheerleader. You’re the cheerleader for the rest of us. And when a cheerleader isn’t on the field,” and from using a sports analogy, “you’re not shooting from the three-point line or trying to hit a home run, encouraging others. And it’s the place you hold, it’s who you are, that now — not just what you do — it’s who you are that speaks volumes.”
I think she’s kind of taken that to heart and said sometimes there’s formal things, sometimes there’s informal things, just like I’ve described, that she does that’s making a difference in her family’s lives.
31:10
Jon Ryan Jensen: My son now is in the shoes that I was in, where he’s taking the sacrament to some of the members of our ward who are in kind of a retirement community. And recently, he shared an experience where he and one of his fellow priests stopped by, and a brother in our ward named Bob said, “Can I ask the two of you a question?” He said, “Yeah, absolutely.” He said, “I’ve been hearing a lot from my family in our family text about some person,” and he shared the name. And he said, “And I guess he makes videos on YouTube. Have you ever heard of him?”
And they thought it was really funny because Bob’s not the kind of guy who just jumps on YouTube, but he’s trying to be engaged in this conversation. And now, all of a sudden, my son and his friend could be a part of that, helping him feel engaged with his own family, because he felt comfortable asking them about something that he couldn’t, that he didn’t feel comfortable asking his own family. And now he feels more engaged in that conversation because he learned a little bit from them.
And so, all of these circles that we’re in are intertwined and help each other be lifted up in spheres where we won’t interact. My son won’t be in that group chat, but he felt so excited that Bob knew who that YouTuber was now and that he could engage with his grandkids. And so I love that kind of conversation.
32:29
Norman Hill: That’s a great example. I’m not all that tech-savvy, but I let my grandkids help me. They’ve helped me put together files that I wasn’t all that familiar with, helped me with PowerPoint and how to put together better PowerPoint presentations. So, teaching goes both ways. It’s their feeling of accomplishment with me as well.
I think one of the things in particular for young people is music. I remember my parents saying, “How come you’re listening to that rock-and-roll stuff?” And so I think, regardless of our age, there’s a connection we have to music in our teenage years. Everybody can think of favorite songs that go back typically to their teenage years. And so, listening to music with our grandchildren is one of the ways we show that we want to be connected to them, that we’re kind of not above or outside of their lived experience.
So I listen to music with my grandkids, and sometimes it’s rappers, and it’s not particularly appealing to me, but I try to appreciate it and try to understand and ask questions about it, that it’s not just me being outside of their lived experience but instead being very integrated to it. And sometimes I found a few songs that I like, and I’ll go back to them, and sometimes I just try to wait until the song’s over.
Jon Ryan Jensen: And “Well, that was interesting,” and that sometimes is where the conversation ends.
Norman Hill: That’s right.
34:15
Jon Ryan Jensen: I’ve found more conversations happening around that with Church music now, as the Church has released new hymns. They recently released another batch of hymns, and there are some songs on there that, for my mother, they are songs that she was more accustomed to hearing when she was younger but that I had never heard of.
And it’s really fun to listen to those songs and think about the way that they helped shape her testimony and her lived experience in the Church or in Young Women’s camp when she was younger, and think about what ones mattered to me when I was a teenager, and see what my kids are listening to when they have their experiences there as well.
34:56
Norman Hill: I think Janice Kapp Perry and Michael McLean have both created a body of work that all of us listen to that’s timeless, as well as open the door for other artists with Church music. They’ve kind of redefined the possible, if you will, and others are benefiting from it. There’s an old saying often credited to Abraham Lincoln: “We all stand on the shoulders of giants,” and that’s true of Michael McLean and Janice Kapp Perry. It’s true of others and other experiences as well. Truly, it all happens.
I love a scripture from Ecclesiastes that helps me. So, I have a friend who says, “No one under the age of 40 should ever read Ecclesiastes, because we misinterpret it, and everybody over 60 ought to be reading it several times a year.” I’ve come to believe that Ecclesiastes is actually an optimist, which is not what many people would say, but he has great messages about living life joyfully and making the most of the experiences that we have, regardless of what occurs.
So, in Ecclesiastes, chapter 9, verse 7: “Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.” After all the experiences that he had — and he writes about there’s a time and season for everything, and he writes about there’s so much of what happens in life is vanity, meaning it’s going to pass away — he emphasizes this eternal truth of: “Just be content with the things that you have. Eat your bread with joy, and drink wine with a merry heart, for God accepteth thy works.” I think our Heavenly Father is so mindful of our circumstance, is so willing to help pull us through any challenges that we have. And if we will let Him in, He will be there for us always.
37:08
Jon Ryan Jensen: What a comforting thought. When we look at the Book of Mormon, so frequently we talk about Nephi and how young he was, or Moroni and how young he was when he was first given a calling. But there are so many other examples of those who shared their prophetic writings as retrospective and, “Don’t worry about these small things that you’re dealing with right now.”
You and I talked about this a little bit before we started recording. Because a lot of those things are just — they’re small, they’re little, and they’re going to go away. And there’s other stuff. The big stuff will stick around.
37:43
Norman Hill: Indeed, it will. I had the chance to go to an institute class two days ago with Tammy Hall, who has a wonderful perspective. She was talking about Abraham and Sarah. And, of course, here Abraham is at 99, so a little younger than President Nelson, and he’s about to have a child. Oh, good. Of course, Sarah is not quite sure about all of that to begin with. And I talked to Tammy afterwards and said, “You know, wouldn’t that be great for us to really plumb Abraham’s life as someone who’s old? I mean, we look at his faithfulness, we look at a lot of experiences that he had, but here he is, someone who’s lived a long time. And what do the scriptures have to say about him and living a long time?”
Tammy emphasized while we were talking that both Abraham and Sarah spent some time in the wilderness, and she used the wilderness as an analogy. Apparently more than 500 times, the term “wilderness” is mentioned in the scriptures. And, of course, the children of Israel wandered 40 years in the wilderness. Jesus, before He began His ministry, spent 40 days — again, a long period of time — in the wilderness, praying, getting things right, kind of preparing Himself for His mission.
And Tammy emphasized this idea of maybe some who wander, who have taken a step back from the Church, they’re just in the wilderness for a while. And so, like anybody who’s in the wilderness kind of working things out, we give them grace and ourselves grace, if we’re parents or grandparents, to say, “All right, they’re working things out.”
It’s not all a bad thing to be in the wilderness if you’re working things out. And Abraham, who spent a fair amount of time in the wilderness, maybe is a role model for us, especially as we age. Not just that he was faithful and that he had a young child at an old age, but he kind of worked a lot of things out in the wilderness. Maybe we can learn from that as well.
40:02
Jon Ryan Jensen: I attended a Young Women’s camp earlier this summer, and part of that camp experience, there was a portion where the young women from our stake had an opportunity to kind of sit out among the trees on this mountainside and write down some thoughts that were coming to them. And they were encouraged to think about the experience that they had had that week and: Where did they feel the Spirit? What did they feel the Holy Ghost prompting them to do? Were they finding answers to questions that they had now that they were a little bit removed from the daily goings on?
And I think that what you’re saying is apropos of that situation as well. Sometimes you need five minutes in the wilderness. Sometimes you need a weeklong campout, or whatever that extended period is, to be with yourself and in that conversation with Heavenly Father about, “Can I, can we get some reconciliation on this matter that’s weighing on me?” And whether it is that you find an answer in those five minutes or those 40 years, Heavenly Father is there and going to give an answer. And that persists from the age of these 11-year-old young women to President Nelson, who’s seeking answers for an entire Church right now.
41:09
Norman Hill: And so many things happen in nature, whether it’s a literal wilderness or it’s a park. We think of Joseph, who went to a sacred grove. He went out in nature. We think of Enos, who went to hunt beasts and then began to pray. He went out in nature. Scientists say today — the term is often called “nature bathing” — going out in nature rejuvenates us, gives us a different perspective.
The Japanese, in particular, from a cultural point of view, have parks and shrines out in nature, specifically to encourage not only meditation but a recalibration of life. Japanese have a great concept as well in dealing with imperfection. It’s called “wabi-sabi.” And where sometimes we — as a specific for instance — if there’s a vase that gets chipped or an heirloom, we’ll want to fix it and cover it up that there’s no cracks that are being shown. They’ll do the opposite. They’ll have that crack or that chip gold inlaid made to show its brilliance. Rather than seeing something that’s imperfection as bad, imperfection is instead something that’s natural. And that makes an enormous difference.
And nature helps us appreciate that, the sense of wonder that comes in nature, but it’s not perfect. If we take a big-picture point of view, there’s storms and tsunamis and earthquakes. OK, so there’s bad things in nature, but nature just happens as well. It’s not something that has, oftentimes, any particular message other than it allows us to incubate, and that’s what happened with Joseph in the Sacred Grove, Enos when he went to hunt beasts, your daughter at camp.
When my oldest son, Ryan, was a teenager, we went to Camp Zarahemla in Arkansas. It was a wonderful experience, kind of a predecessor to FSY, where all Aaronic Priesthood from multiple stakes and regions came together, did a bunch of activities, had scripture study and experiences together, and had the chance to, oftentimes, just be alone.
President [David O.] McKay often said, “Meditation is one of the most secret, most sacred doors through which we pass into the presence of the Lord.” And as we spend time in the scriptures and then reflect on them in nature, I think we get inspiration that we otherwise don’t get. And we can do that as older people as well.
I love the phrase that was in general conference some years ago, where an older brother was asked, “Isn’t that so great that you go on all these campouts and you have all these sleepovers with young men out in the woods?” And he said, “I never sleep on campouts. When I go there, I toss and turn, and it’s not comfortable. But I have a chance to get close to young men, and them to me, and me to other brethren in a way that doesn’t happen in a building; not in a house, not in a chapel, maybe not even in a temple.”
Because all those places, they’re built for purpose. Nature happens. It allows us to express ourselves. And as we are open to nature, and as we meditate on the scriptures, I think we get inspiration that we get in no other way.
Jon Ryan Jensen: Sitting around a fire. There’s not much that compares to that anywhere else.
Norman Hill: Yeah, it creates its own mood. And it’s one of those things that’s hard to put your finger on but easy to notice.
45:00
Jon Ryan Jensen: I love that. When it comes to being at home and it comes to sometimes living alone, there can be caregiving matters for individuals as they get older as well, whether they have physical challenges or if they are facing memory challenges as well.
Do you have any thoughts on how families can address those kinds of issues together with parents or other members of their ward who are experiencing those challenges?
45:33
Norman Hill: We have in our ward — disproportionately; I live in St. George — a disproportionate number of older people in our ward. And we have a family home evening group with — there’s probably 25 or so couples and individuals who come, not all at the same time, for a variety of different reasons. And at a recent family home evening group, an older couple said, “We’re putting together an “adios book.”
Jon Ryan Jensen: An adios book.
Norman Hill: At first, someone said, “What do you mean an adios book? Well, we’re not planning to leave anytime soon.” He emphasized, “Everybody wants to get to heaven, but none of us are in a hurry to get there.” But we put together a set of what our interests are, what our requests are, so that our children and grandchildren know what’s important to us.
And they put documents that matter, so the will is in there, where certain important items that are memories and treasures and who gets them are there. But they’ve also put some of their wishes. So they put in writing what their wishes are, that if they have health issues, what they would prefer.
In our ward, there’s, I think, a Bill Burtenshaw whose wife passed away a number of years ago, and he has some physical challenges. He wants to stay in his own home. He does get lonely. He loves it when someone comes by. I think recognizing, first of all, what’s of most interest to a particular individual or family.
By and large, research data would say people want to stay in their homes as long as they can. And that means sometimes formally getting caregivers who will come in, who will help. Bill actually has someone who comes in five days a week, cleans his house, prepares a meal and has a chance to visit with him every single day. I think expressing in writing somewhere for family members what your preferences are is a first and important kind of thing to do.
I think secondly, recognizing sometimes it’s contact that matters more than content. My kids say, “You say the same things all the time, Dad.” It’s like, “Well, I only have so many things to say.”
Jon Ryan Jensen: And also, you might not say it over and over if you felt somebody was listening to you.
48:16
Norman Hill: You’re right. There are several older people who I visit, and I hear some of the same stories. And I try to look for, “Is there something a little different that they’re expressing this time?” Or, “Can I ask a different kind of question? Can I recognize it’s not just the words; it’s the sentiment?” I think for caregivers it’s, rather than becoming impatient with hearing the same stories repeated, it’s either looking for a different angle when hearing that story or asking about a specific detail that might otherwise go unnoticed.
And then it’s saying, as the old phrase goes, “There but for the grace of God go I.” At some point in time, we all aspire to get older. So, what is it that I can learn, if I’m younger, from this experience about aging faithfully, about living longer better, about making the most of this master class that President Nelson has emphasized to us?
And I think the more we gain an eternal perspective, the more it helps us with the ordinary circumstances of life. I was involved in doing a study in St. George where we invited everyone in the city of St. George to participate in a survey. We had 3,000 people who responded. We didn’t limit it to any age demographic. It was during COVID. We started before COVID, we finished after COVID.
And one of the things we found is there was an inverse relationship between age and anxiety. The general belief of the scientific community was: People who are older are going to have the most trouble during COVID, because they’re going to be isolated. What we found was the opposite was true, that people who were older took things in stride. “Hey, we’ve been through troubles before. We’ve seen bad times. This is one more brick on the load,” if you will.
People who became the most anxious or the most depressed or the most lonely were the 18- to 26-year-olds. As you got older, you became less anxious, less concerned, less worried. As you were younger, it was like, “What’s going on here?” and “The sky is falling, the world is falling apart.” I think research data outside of our experience has validated that survey that we did.
The Greatest Generation, if you will — the people who experienced the 1930s depression and World War II, the rise of totalitarianism outside of the U.S. — they’re able to take things in stride. The older you are, the more you’ve seen this sort of thing before and are able to say, “This too will pass.”
I think the message that my generation can convey is, for young people today: You have marvelous experiences ahead of you. You don’t know or imagine. Yeah, you’re going to have some hard times, but everybody does. And the more you keep faith and pursue future goals and believe that life holds great possibilities, the more you’ll experience them, because you’re anticipating them.
Young people today call it “manifest.” The more you manifest those things in your own life, the more you’ll experience them. I believe that’s part of what the Lord said He’s going to manifest Himself in His holy temples. As we go there anticipating the Lord is going to manifest Himself to us, we will manifest those Christlike virtues that the temple embodies, and we’ll go out different people. We’ll be renewed.
President Nelson asked us to read section 109 a few conferences ago, the Kirtland Temple dedication. And in it, at least twice, it says, “Go forth from this building” — not “come to.” We always talk about, “Go to the temple,” but “Go forth with power.” And so it’s not just going to the temple; it’s going from the temple that matters, going forth with power. And we go forth with power when we understand that that message is that life has great possibilities, that in the final analysis — as President [Jeffrey R.] Holland likes to say — good will prevail.
We’re on the winning team. It’s just a matter of what the final score is going to look like and whether or not we’re fully participating on that winning team. It’s that belief that things eventually are going to work out. President [Gordon B.] Hinckley emphasized constantly that things are going to work out. And if we live gospel principles, there are going to be some challenges in our master class, but in the final analysis, good wins.
53:33
Jon Ryan Jensen: Great thoughts. Brother Hill, thank you. This has been a great conversation. I think that many people will find these insights helpful in different situations that they’re facing.
As we get ready to wrap up, though, I would love to give you the opportunity, as we do on every episode of the Church News podcast, to have the final word today.
And I want to give that chance to you by asking you: What is it that you know now, having observed and learned what you have, having listened to those you’ve listened to? What do you know now that has enriched your life?
54:05
Norman Hill: We have lots of stereotypes about aging, and there’s an old phrase that, “Within every stereotype, there’s a grain of truth and a lot of lies.” I think recognizing that life has its transitions. Researchers like Erik Erikson has talked about stages of life and that we all will go through a few of those predictable stages of life. As we get older, one of those stages that Erikson talks about is called “Generativity” — we’re looking for ways to give back. And if there’s anything that I hope to do from a legacy point of view, it’s trying to say, “Where is it that I can give back? What is it that I can both do and represent?” And “represent” means that I’m not doing anything. It’s about who I am.
And so, in this stage of my life, I am looking for some things to do. I love being a substitute seminary teacher. I’m a volunteer at the BYU Ballard Center for Social Impact. I love doing what in the Church we would call “humanitarian work,” what at the Ballard center we focus on “social ventures” and trying to identify ways that we can share and help people flourish at any age and in any circumstance.
And having lived in Africa for a long period of time, we sometimes have this view economically — West Africa, in particular, that I know the best — somewhat economically deprived. But Gallup surveys would show West Africans are among the most optimistic people in the world, way more optimistic, have fewer anxieties, less depression, less loneliness than often in the West.
And so, the learning for me is as I’m looking to give back, it doesn’t matter what my circumstances are. Even my friend who’s in an assisted-living center right now texts everybody. And she said, “My ministry is now other people in our assisted living center. My goal is I’m not able to travel and visit in the same way that I could when I could drive, but I have people here that I can minister to, I can look for ways to make their life better, I can share experiences, I can hear from them in ways that I otherwise wouldn’t have been able to if I were still living at home.
It’s that stage of life for me that I want to both do and represent. The person that I want to be is somebody who’s faithful, somebody who said, “OK, things haven’t always gone the way that I expected or hoped or wished or wanted. But nonetheless, this master class, these learning experiences, are not only going to help me be a better person but prepare me for a future eternity that I strongly believe in.”
The apostle Paul said if we have hope in this life only, “we are of all men most miserable” (1 Corinthians 15:19). I have great hope for the future. I have a strong testimony that life endures beyond this life. The things we do here matter. They make a difference. President Nelson has emphasized that as well, that what we do here and how we live our life makes a difference. But it’s a springboard, and we’re only living here 70, 80, 90, 100 years. We’ve lived before this earth life, and we’re going to live after this earth life. And it’s important to make the most of things that happen here, but it’s only a tiny part of our whole life’s existence. And so, keeping that in perspective as well.
I believe that our Father in Heaven has great blessings in store for each of us. Doesn’t matter our economic circumstances, the optimism of West Africans, the optimism of President Nelson, who’s emphasizing the importance of going forward and looking forward, the belief and hope that I have, that I think all Latter-day Saints and, in fact, people outside the Church are looking for as well.
I read a regular column in the New York Times that emphasizes people are searching for spiritual answers. They don’t always feel like they’re finding them in their church or mosque or synagogue, but they’re searching for spiritual answers.
And we have in the gospel so many wonderful answers to life’s questions that if somehow we’re able to translate those in the ordinary experiences we’re each having in a way that others can relate to, then not only will our nation be able to be healed from some of the wounds we have, but all of us here on planet Earth are going to be able to progress in a way that our Father in Heaven wants us to progress and prepare for an eternity and the richest blessings that He has for us in eternity.
But we can hardly even imagine, the Prophet Joseph tells us. Recognizing that gives me energy every day, helps me to wake up every morning and say, “These are the kinds of blessings I have that I want to share. These are the things I can learn from others who have things to share with me that I need to learn and I need to make the most of in this master class.”
0:59:58
Jon Ryan Jensen: Thank you for listening to the Church News podcast. I’m your host, Church News editor Jon Ryan Jensen. I hope you learned something today about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and had your faith in the Savior increase by looking through the Church News window as a living record of the Restoration. Please subscribe, rate and review this podcast so it can be accessible to more people. And if you enjoyed the messages we shared today, please share the podcast with others. Thanks to our guests; to my producer, KellieAnn Halvorsen; and to others who make this podcast possible. Join us every week for a new episode. Find us on your favorite podcasting channels or with other news and updates about the Church on TheChurchNews.com or on the Church News app.
